I imagine that my rather large female reader base is going to read the first three or sentences of this article, get incredibly angry, stop reading, and start sending me a bunch of angry emails that I will, to return the favor, also not read. But I’m doing it anyway. Fuck it.
My Conoy background has given me a perspective on gender issues that usually enrages traditional western feminists despite it being one that I believe would give women far more power than the standard notion of ‘gender equality’.
Figure 1: Typical feminist, five seconds after I’ve started talking
In the old days before white people came and fucked everything up, only Conoy men served as Werowance and Tayac*. Only men were the soldiers and the builders. Only men could serve on the governing councils. Women were sent away from the villages during their Moon** because of the cosmic power it represented (kind of a “we’re not worthy” thing). In the household, a man’s word was final.
On the flip side, women didn’t have the same TYPE of power as men - but they had power that was arguably equal to or even greater than that of men. Clan Mothers could have a Werowance executed as long as she could prove he was fucking up (if the U.S. was Conoy-run, Nancy Pelosi could’ve had George Bush killed years ago). Women were responsible not just for cooking, but for the land itself. It was the women (and children) that handled the entire planting cycle from seed to harvest and, though there was no concept of land ownership, land was considered to ‘belong’ to women. Inheritance was matrilineal. When a man and woman married, the man and the children became part of the woman’s clan and moved into the woman’s lodge, rather than the other way around. If a woman wanted a divorce, she grabbed up all her husband’s shit and tossed it out of the lodge…and this constituted a formal divorce.
Figure 2: Intimidating, yes. But a woman owns his nuts, I promise.
Unfortunately, this Indian brand of assigning gender roles would never work in the modern world because, at its core, it’s a system of checks and balances between men and women with roles assigned according to natural predispositions (men are naturally aggressive and outwardly dominant, women are naturally nurturing and inwardly dominant). Men had power over the world, but women had power over the men. Hyperindustrialized economies, unfortunately, render this system moot because gender is no longer a parameter in the socio-economic equation (except when it comes to prejudice).
In my view, western feminism has done a disservice to women because it’s actually eroded their real power over men. This is because western feminism is essentially based on the idea of turning women socially and economically into men***. The result of this has been very empowering for women (or so it would seem), but it’s come at the cost of removing co-dependence between men and women which, from a macro-societal standpoint, is a bad thing. Women don’t ‘need’ men anymore, per se - but now the men don’t ‘need’ women either. With men and women adopting the same socio-economic roles, the need (and power) that men and women have for (and over) one another has been degraded to a purely sexual one.
This is why chivalry is dead. This is why we always have to listen to stupid ass men accusing empowered women of “penis envy” and why we always have to listen to stupid ass women asserting their power over men with the “we have the vagina, and we know you want it” argument.
Figure 3: The current state of Chivalry…
Of course, I could direct my anger at industrialized economies rather than feminism, but I choose to attack feminism because its founders chose the first (and lower) of the two roads the ideology could have adopted:
- Empower women by adopting the boorish and aggressive qualities of men
- Empower women by making men adopt the more reserved and genteel (but not feminine) qualities of women
Both options are fairly unnatural, but I get the feeling that if feminists had pursued option 2, both girls and guys would be a whole lot happier. The ladies could’ve made it happen, too. After all, they have the vagina and yes, we do want it.
Instead they chose option 1, and how very sad it is to see that choice reduce men and women to mere baby makers in the eyes of one another.
*Werowance = Chief. Tayac = Chief of Chiefs
**Menstrual cycle
***I am not a feminist scholar, and am not well versed in what feminism is theoretically based on. I don’t give a shit about theory - I’m basing this claim instead on what I’ve seen and heard from actual feminists in day-to-day life
Seems pretty legitimate to me. Some feminists will argue that they aren’t the “aggressive” type, that they just want things to be equal in the workplace - I say they aren’t feminists, rather, they are advocates for equality in the workplace for women. Completely different.
Chris Why not have a go at militant feminism only, I do not mind seeing women entering careers they had been denied access to, I do not mind haveing a vote.
Men have not always done a good job at it.
I think the biggest shift in roles has come because both men and women have to work full time because of the tax system and men are to blame for that.
I am more worried about men acting female than of Feminism.
http://stuffgirlslike.wordpress.com
@Angry. No, it’s not completely different at all. That is BY DEFINITION feminism. I think that who Chris is writing about is the stereotypical feminist, and yes, they are infuriating. And that’s why I never get offended by Chris’ posts, because anyone who takes their life that seriously and lets a label define them needs a thorough laughing at. But my personal experience with feminism is different. My best friend is a feminist, she believes in equality for women and loves Women’s Studies. But she loves and respects her men and isn’t a “ballbreaker.” She just believes women should be equal and have the same choices as a man when it comes to jobs, sexuality, marriage, etc.
Feminist that have to make men feel like shit are just as bad as men have to make women feel like shit….insecure.
Fuck. It is not gonna be a good day. I have to read this later. It’s as if I came to the site and saw my own name as the ‘hate’ of the day.
You know whats crazy? I am a decent, not great, but decent cook. I can cook 3-4 meals a week and generally they won’t cause food poisoning. But I know a lot (not saying all) women that really just cannot cook. Feminists want to have all the equality but are sometimes so willing to leave behind the reasons why men really love women and why i would assume its great to be a woman.
I love women, but dare I say, I shouldn’t be more averse in cleaning, cooking and more caring than you. That’s a problem. Go get your cock implant and call it a day.
-Ed.
http://www.edthesportsfan.com
Liberal feminists are fine (they stress equal rights and overcoming overt discrimination). Radical feminists, or feminazis, as I like to call them, are what I think Chris is referring to.
These are the women that like to play the Oppression Olympics and say It’s harder to be a woman than a black person because racism is something imposed by white men (as stated in a feminist manifesto “Oppression” by Marilyn Frye) as if white women weren’t the ones who were also throwing bricks and screaming nigger during segregation.
As a liberal feminist, I have to concede Chris makes excellent points, many that I’ve made to a lot of my guy acquaintances. The feminazis are also the ones that do about as much for the betterment of women as Al Sharpton does for the betterment of black people- they get pissy about every little thing. The best example of a feminazi is a die hard HRC supporter who refuses to vote for Barack because he’s the shining example of sexism in America -which aside from that one “Hold on sweetie” remark, which I believe was an honest slip, is bull.
Oh, this didn’t piss me off at all. False alarm, lol.
Lauren, I think you summed it up pretty well, as did Chris ( I don’t agree 100% with his asssertations, but I can respect them). I am vehemently feminist, but it’s in a more reactionary way. I think we could have a great culture of ‘checks and balances’, but misogyny thwarts our ability to do so. I am definitely gonna steal that, ‘checks and balances’. Love it.
This is a very anti-female society and our sub-society (Negronia) is even more guilty of perpetuating anti-woman notions and behavior. Black people exist in a very unique and unhealthy space: we are a misogynist patriarchy. Black women are (by default and by merit) the backbone of our community and are as beloved as they are hated and as hated as they are essential. Used, abused, neglected….I could go on for days.
I respect people’s rights to define their own identity without having to subscribe to traditional gender roles. However, it frustrates me that so many feminists adopt traits that are traditionally male simply because they oppose what society prescribes. Does having long ass underarm hair and a buzz cut make you a better FEMinist? I vote no. You can do that if you want, but it seems to me that you are defining feminism as being like a man, whilst hating men. Reminds me of what Whites do to the coloreds.
As a great man once said “you’ll have yours, and I’ll have mine. And together we’ll be fine, because it takes, diff’rent strokes to move the world” That is my approach to this gender thing.
Ed, you sound like an ass.
I think you should read up on Womanism. Your claims are based on yes a stereotype of actually a white, european based concept, “feminism.” Womanism was started by Black women because our fight was different and feminism excluded our actual needs.(I mean please Black women have been working since we got to this crazy ass country, and voting was a moot point for a while), I’d be interested to see if your views are the same, as to how it effects the gender roles in the Black community. I think our gender problems stem from a bigger animal….
I know this is a not so serious thread, but there is a lot of material on the origins of Feminism- subversives started the feminist movement because they were anti the traditional family.
A good source is Rabbi Marvin Antelmans “To eliminate the Opiate”
http://stuffgirlslike.wordpress.com
I really want Chris to stay out of my head…j/k
In any event, I’m a history buff. One of my particular obsessions as a child was reading about American Indians (”Native” Americans were not in my vocab then). I was fascinated with the cultures, and how they honored the land, God, and especially women.
With that said, RADICAL feminism pisses me off. It makes it harder for me to find men that are chivalrous, and actually WANT to act like a man and let me be the woman. It’s made men turn into bitchasses who look at you crazy if you expect them to open doors, carry bags, offer you their jacket if it’s cold, etc. and so forth. I tell my peeps all the time…if I could go back and kick the asses of those silly chicks who started the nonsense, I so would. I’m for equality, but um, “separate but equal” sounds a hell of a lot better than “I don’t need you cause I can do anything you can”.
AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHA@Figure 3. Feminism/Womanism is an interesting concept, though I don’t understand it completely, I do find it odd that women are the majority, and like ST said, the backbone, in most societies yet have fewer “rights” than men. I have to say: I do have issue with co-dependence. My culinary skills, resourcefulness, and drive should be matched or exceeded by my partner, and when it’s not I’m a lil pissed. However, when a giant flying roach/palmetto bug gets in the bathroom I need my husband to kill it.
Has anyone here read Wallace’s “Black Macho And The Myth Of The Superwoman” or any bell hooks (esp. “Feminism Is For Everybody”)?
Wonder what Shabooty is gonna come with this topic? I am guessing something like “I let bitches ride on top, thats feminism”.
bell hooks is my girl!
@Sister Toldja lmBAO!!! “I let bitches ride on top, thats feminism”
Thats my motto, and I will be stealing it. I am reading bell hook’s Ain’t I a Woman?
@Akela…I completely feel you…I subscribe to Womanism over Feminism anyday. Alice Walker is great! Mainstream Femisnists, tho they won’t admit it, are just coming around to accepting black woman and not making us choose between our blackness and womaness.
Did we just turn this message board into a Women’s studies class?
I also believe in some gender roles, but not necessarily in a strict sense, because we are normally good at different things, Chris is right regardless of what people think MEN AND WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT. The problem is sometimes people take things to extreme and end up just as fucced up as when it started.
Lauren- we NEED one around these parts! LOL.
I know I am more fundamentally “womanist” than “feminist”. However, I use the words interchangibly, because I refuse to let White women own the latter word (and the concept). Black women need to stop fearing feminism/womanism, because we need it more now than ever! See, the problem is that we seem to think that the Black man’s struggle is THE Black struggle, while both refusing to acknowledge our own challenges with sexism and forcing the Black man to see that the Black woman’s struggle is his own.
Oh we having church up in here today!
I agree, ST. Ed sounds like a total ass. The ability to cook and clean should not be what defines one’s femininity/masculinity.
But unfortunately, the consistent argument in my home is about the cooking and cleaning.
My husband made it clear to me that he never intended to be the sole bread winner, and I made it clear that if I didn’t HAVE to work, i wouldn’t. With that being said, I cook every day for my husband and son, I clean every day, and i take my black ass to WORK every day. . .
See what western feminism has done to my family? I am content with traditional gender roles (raise babies, take care of “the land” i.e. our townhouse) yet he thinks that I want the same opportunity to work as him(NOT true) because I went to school and am gainfully employed, yet STILL expects the traditional “cooking and cleaning.”
Because of the stigma associated with feminism, society (and my husband) refuses to embrace its more logical tenets and instead focus on the negative loud-and-wrong few and interpret its doctrine in a way that is beneficial of their own arguments (you want to work? Fine here’s your job . . . for 30 cents less.)
As a result, I am hesitant to call myself a feminist as it will be yet another assigned title I will have to defend because a.) feminist hate me when I say “I’d rather not work, I like staying home to raise babies, thank you” and b.) men think you don’t shave and are a lesbian ball buster. Does that make me a sellout? Iono, and frankly, my dear, i don’t give a damn. My resolution? We hired a maid.
And while that picture of chivalry had me rolling, it was only because it was so sad, it was funny.
This is going to be an interesting day. . .
@PrettyPiscesGirl
You ain’t never lied. I really want to punch the radical feminists for taking it too damn far. I am all for equal rights but miss me with trying to make me do some of the icky guy stuff!
@Ed
In response to some women not knowing how to cook..I don’t know a helluva lot about cars but I know the basics. Why is that I am running across heterosexual men that don’t know shit about cars?! They can’t even change the oil or make minor repairs?!
Would love to stay home and take care of the household, babies, etc. I work because I HAVE to…damn sure not cause I WANT to, yanno?
i agree with this post - betty friedan and her crew fucked women over big time because their “feminism” basically meant that [white] women should do all what men do in society without changing men’s roles an eon - and who ended up cooking, cleaning, washing dirty draws and raising children for them? other [black/latina/asian/non-white more broadly] women who didn’t have the luxury of college degrees or rich fathers/husbands.
not only that, the value of the “traditional” role of women has fallen so far as a result of “feminism” - a woman who wants to stay home and take care of her kids is looked down upon more often than not, with “feminists” saying, “after all the strides that have been made for you, you just want to stay home and be a housewife?” bullshit on that. man might have made the train, plane and motherfucking electric bulb, but he never could have done it without a woman taking care of him. if the work women put into a household was measured as part of the economy’s output, maybe george bush wouldn’t be sweating so hard right now.
me personally, as an african woman, i take pride in being able to cook and clean like a pro. doesn’t mean i still won’t have a successful career, or expect my husband/partner to put in work at home, but i consider both of these aspects of being a woman equally important, as well as the sometimes patriarchal but still vital parts of my culture that determine a woman’s role in the family. apparently that’s called “third-world feminism” or “womanism” by scholars today. i call it what my mama taught me.
Nicely said Puff!
@Cola - I think a lot of men used to know a lot about cars because they had to but if you could afford to get someone else to fix it you would.
My mother used to do that type of shit to me at 13 I was somehow supposed to miraculously know plumbing, how to lay tile, and cut down trees, just because I’m a man WTF.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH @Omar. Aren’t men born holding a screwdriver and wearing goggles? Girls are born knowing how to bake. Omar, something’s wrong with you.
since feminism is about choice, i choose not to label myself as such. all feminism has done is break down old stereotypes and made new, and not necessarily positive, ones.
im waitin on shabooty too. lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and ok Puff!! preach
Omar that is funny but I was just trying to prove a point to Ed. Every woman can’t cook just like every man isn’t a handy man. But on the other hand aren’t there certain things we should just know how to do? I mean.. why would I be grown and not know how to cook? (this applies to men and women) I’m not saying you have to like doing it! You should just know how to do the freaking basics.. Let me stop rambling.
I don’t have any problem with Men or Women taking on the opposite “gender roles”, but I do have a problem with people (note: I said people, not specifically women OR men) that go overboard with it.
Cola, I feel you, I know how to change the oil anyway and now because of my mother I can cut down a tree… but I make no promises about where it’s going to land. At this point as expensive as things are I’m doing everything myself, I ain’t buying nothing but gas and food.
By the way I do think that our obesity/health care crisis is because women stopped cooking and brothas didn’t pick up a spatula, just my thoughts.
Whoa Omar!
You are not going to blame the obesity crisis on us! Blame it on the hormones and chemicals that they put in the food.
Men only have themselves to blame. lol. Men are overweight from sitting on their butts eating and playing Madden instead of going outside and playing for real!
It also has thrown off the pursuit and expectation of marriage among younger people. Men used to marry women because they needed a family unit in order to survive (frequently off the land.) Women needed men because many of teh ways of making money required brute strength (again, the land.) Of course there was plenty of sexism that prevented women from having lots of other types of jobs as well, but your point about mutual necessity comes into play here.
Now the shit is reduced pretty much strictly to love. When love is teh sole factor, and folks are unwilling to settle, you wind up with lower marriage rates, and high divorces too. Some folks see that as a good thing, some bad.
It boils down to Survival Skills. Men and Women should both be able to cook* (more than breakfast), change a tire, sew buttons, switch out windshield wipers, hang a mirror, vacuum, burp a baby, wash a tub, type, pay bills, et cetera, et cetera.
*Men who can’t cook upset me. Read a few recipes, damnit! Practice makes perfect.
Omar - obesity/health crisis blamed on women and men’s laziness? Nice try.
puff, you are so spot-on. While I do appreciate women progressing to the point where they can “do anything a man can”, I’m not down with the basic traits associated with “femininity” (like nurturing) being deemed as weak. Like you can’t be “nurturing” and still believe that a woman has every right to do what a man can do? Ten types of bullshit.
That very weak trait (nurturing) is one of the primary traits of a mother. The very trait that shapes the assholes who make these dumb rules on what is “weak” and what isn’t. And any woman who can squeeze a PERSON out of her is everything that is the opposite of weak.
I said both men and women were to blame, actually more so on men because we didn’t fill the gap but McDonalds did, besides real cooking is an activity in and of itself and tends to get people off of their behinds a little.
I haven’t even read the post yet but from the title alone I know the comments section is going to turn into a war between the dicks and the vaginas LOL.
BTW I’m anti feminism and I will explain once I finish up these financial reports for my dickhead boss.
Very insightful post today Chris…..I have been having this same conversation with my spouse for 16 years. He has maintained that women have always had tremendous power in society …… but, the power over a man is not what most women are really looking for. I think most women are looking for empowerment of self…and a rightful choice in their destiny….. ……That my friend is a reason to embrace feminism………peace
Ok Puff!
I personally LOVE to eat, therefore I LOVE to cook. I, however, HATE HATE HATE cleaning. Oh well. This is where I expect my partner to pick up slack. We should operate as a whole. Ill cook all day for you, but Im NOT washing those pots. (if your gonna eat it, you should clean it right?)
I love my job, and I work because I really enjoy what I do. But yes, if i didnt HAVE to work, I would love to be a stay-at-home mom, taking care of the kids, running the house, and telling the maid to make sure the dishes are put back in the right place
I think some of yall are missing the whole point of the post which was to talk about the misgivings of modern feminism in a historical view. Chris gives examples from his own heritage where, historically, interactions btwn men and women were based on natural dispositions and not societal theories. Similar to Ed (who God, I hope) was trying to be historical in his description of gender roles in the home with women doing more cooking than men. These things USED to be VALUES of the family structure and society as a whole. It doesn’t mean that women shouldn’t be given the same opportunities as men with equal wages and representation. It just means that for a society to operate in a more efficient manner, we as men and women should fit into a structure because currently there isn’t one. It all depends on where you were born and who raised you instead of the CULTURE you’re born INTO.
I also think this is why the divorce rate in so dangum high, but that’s another conversation.
Dig.
trialandera.wordpress.com
vanita, i am exactly the same way. i will throw down in the kitchen, but don’t ask me to clean the bathroom. washing the dishes calms me though. i loved cooking for my ex-boyfriend and he loved doing household stuff, so it was no big deal for him to wash the dishes or fold the clothes. he did it without prompting. i liked it cause, call it check and balances if you want, it felt like we needed each other. i don’t care how you slice it, sometimes you just need someone. i dont think we should fight it either. it feels good to be needed and when you need something, it feels good to know that someone has your back.
I touched on this a bit on my site yesterday. I’m kind of ambivalent about radfems. I mean, on one hand, they do consistently make for great drinking buddies, but, for many women, it does seem that “feminism” = “personally embody the worse characteristics of a stereotypical guy”. It’s akin to the homosexual man who’s girlier than the girliest girl.
(You know, I’d even argue that the sexual revolution of the late 60’s and 70’s as well as the womanist movement strongly contributed to the current breakdown of the black family, but thats another discussion for another day.)
Gotta give it to Chris on this one. A female hard-ass gives me the same feeling that most black women get when they see an unnecessarily effeminate man.
I was completely prepared to hate this post, but I have to give it up to you. Well done.
(You know, I’d even argue that the sexual revolution of the late 60’s and 70’s as well as the womanist movement strongly contributed to the current breakdown of the black family, but thats another discussion for another day.)
@ the champ…I read your post on your site yesterday, and while I didn’t have the time to respond, I quite agreed with your assertion. I tell my friends all the time…if you want a man that WANTS to be with you…let that man pursue YOU. If he can’t do the basic minimum to express interest, he won’t do the basic minimum to keep your relationship going.
I also agree with your statement above…the sexual “revolution” did US no good. If anything, it hastened the whole “baby mama/baby daddy” syndrome we see exhibited so rampantly on Maury Povich. RAD Feminism…while it has allowed SOME women to make a few cents/dollars more than they did 30/40 years ago…has also eroded the basic dynamics of relationships that WORKED for thousands of years.
B4P, what is an unnecessarily effiminate man? And why do ignorant Black bitches get so man in the presence of fab?
Sorry, my hag game is strong. I don’t only snap for the kids, I fight for em.
Champ-BOOOOOOOOOOOO!
How could the feminist movement have helped to break down the Black family when BLACK WOMEN DIDN’T PARTICIPATE AT ALL????? We were too busy trying to liberate the Black man to liberate ourselves. And look at where that got us! Look at how y’all treat us! Look at the sorry state of gender politics in our comunity! We thought feminism was white woman’s territory, because white feminists were racists. And now look at us!
FBJHRFkfHwek,fhKWEHDFKfuckfuckfuck
ANGER LEVEL- OFF THE CHART!
Seems to me that Feminism is just the extension of full human rights to women. Inherently, a good thing.
I dont think it made women become a certain way. It’s just that to get some of the powers that men have you’ve got to go about it in a way that has been seen as masculine, but now is just genderlessly aggressive or ambitious.
I dont see how opening up “genteel roles” for men can be as empowering as allowing women to fill any role they choose to.
But being a dude speaking on this subject, I’m probably wrong some where.
http://diggsdominion.com
The “sexual revolution” did not break down the Black family. Crack cocaine, the Vietnam War, white oppression, self-hatred, misogny and rap music brought down the Black family.
the sexual revolution didn’t break down the black family, it broke down family as a whole. Cocaine, war and self hatred are good examples of ruining factors of black family. White oppression i would disagree with because black families seemed to be at their strongest when white oppression was at its most rampant.
Like Chris said, the problem with black families is that women don’t NEED men and men don’t NEED women.
http://trialandera.wordpress.com
Puff: “a woman who wants to stay home and take care of her kids is looked down upon more often than not, with “feminists” saying, “after all the strides that have been made for you, you just want to stay home and be a housewife?” bullshit on that. man might have made the train, plane and motherfucking electric bulb, but he never could have done it without a woman taking care of him. if the work women put into a household was measured as part of the economy’s output, maybe george bush wouldn’t be sweating so hard right now.”
On the news, they said that if being a housewife was an actual occupation, they would be making about $100,000/year. nuff said.
My grandma has always said that my grandpa was the head of the household but she was the neck. The neck always turns the head in the direction it needs to go in. : )
As someone who has a deep and profound respect for my father who raised me and provided a great life, I have an issue with Feminism because most of the rhetoric I’ve read makes all men appear to be evil useless pigs whose sole existence is to bring down women. I believe that feminism is now seeking to elevate the status of women over men which contradicts the original goal of equality. Feminism has also contributed to anti-male discrimination in the areas of reproductive rights, child custody, alimony, and property division in divorce. As a Black woman, I cannot support any movement that involves bashing another gender, race, or religion.
In my opinion feminism as also contributed to the break down of the family structure which there has been in increase in teenage pregnancy, drug use, and crime. Studies show that children who grow up in fatherless homes tend to be in a lower economic class, more likely to get involved in illegal activity, and perform poorly in academics. Feminism devalues the man’s role in society and in the family structure. Although there are chauvinistic pigs out there, men in general are not evil and do make important contributions in this world.
There are biological differences between men and woman. The fact is men tend to be physically stronger than woman. Women have the burden of giving birth so their bodies require time to heal and be at home (unless you are super woman then here is a cookie for you). I also believe that there are lessons a father can teach that a mother cannot and vice versa. Feminism fails to acknowledge and respect these differences. We are not all created the same and the contributions from each gender provide balance in our society.
My hate for feminism runs deep, especially since the White Women’s feminist movement has contributed to the destruction of the Black community. Black women were tricked into joining this movement and as a result we became an ignored figure in all movements.
BTW Puff I cosign with your statement. I love the fact that I consider myself a balanced woman. I’m kicking ass in Corporate American but I can still cook like a pro, clean, and maintain my home. Women would be surprised how much power a home cooked meal has over a man. I’ve gotten my way after making some kick ass gumbo, fried chicken, Italian food, etc…
Every woman has a pussy, but not everyone has cooking skills. Something to think about while you are burning bras and getting abortions. In this day and age women don’t even have the power of sex anymore because folks are giving up left and right. Women have lost their allure which is why marriages are falling apart and men aren’t going out of their way to charm women.
I don’t think you can have this conversation without discussing race. Feminism is more a White woman’s movement. White woman have only invited Black women to be apart of it when they needed big numbers of women to protest, vote, etc.
Even now we see the divide in the Feminist consciousness during the Democratic nomination race. Hillary Clinton has called her White Feminist friends to help her garner support from White women only.
For Black women she, Clinton, spat in our faces when she stood in a Black church with a man that has been nothing but a misogynist toward Black women, Bob Johnson.
This is just another example of White women not seeing their Black (and Brown) counterparts as worthy of receiving the benefits of the so-called Feminist Movement.
To them we are not truly women. We are just a poor imitation of real women, White women.
I am NOT a feminist, I am a womanist. I believe in equality for women, I believe in women having the right to choose their own destinies.
But if you call me a Feminist I’m going to get angry.
AS RICHARD PRIOR ONCE SAID….
WOMEN GOT HALF THE MONEY, AND ALLLL THE PUSSY….
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@”feminazi” - hysterical. i think feminist fascists are misguided and confused. I am all for equal pay equal rights, AT THE SAME TIME, I am for a division inthe hosuehold. There are some things my husband is better at than I am -domestically. And since he is a mess in the kitchen- he isnt’ allowed in there except to refill my plate. I would GLADLY stay home and raise our child as opposed to working if that opportunity were to present itself. Our culture (negro) has ABSOLUTELY added to the degradation of women on all fronts, media, music and it needs to stop. Not because I am a woman but because I am a person. I don’t think al men suck or are out to “rule” women, but there are men out there that want to do exactly that. We must first love ourselves on a grand scale before we try to get any other body of people to embrace us as whole, important and worthy.
I’m female, not mad and still wondering if you ever travel to Silicon Valley…
Figure 3 is hilarious and so very true.
And of course, shabooty has summed it (women power) all up. LMAO
“The “sexual revolution” did not break down the Black family. Crack cocaine, the Vietnam War, white oppression, self-hatred, misogny and rap music brought down the Black family.”
I didn’t say that it was solely responsible, but it did contribute.
This is actually an chicken/egg argument. You’re saying that those factors caused the black family to break down. I’m saying that the breakdown made us less immune to everything else, which, when you consider that some of the factors you cited (especially white oppression) have always been factors we’ve had to deal with as a people, makes more sense
I’ll always maintain that out-of-wedlock children is our community’s biggest issue right now, and that all of the other problems we face, from poverty to a a general feeling of apathy towards education, stem from that. I say that the sexual revolution of the 70’s contributed to this because that was the era when the negative stigma was removed from having babies out of wedlock, a phenomenon which has grown exponentially worse today
Now, I’m not saying that the onus falls squarely on women’s shoulders. No, far from that. But you can’t logicially argue against the fact that the “free-love” era and the feminism movement fucked us over.
(Btw, don’t boo me, Sister T. At least not until I’ve had lunch. )
Black men and women are responsible for the breakdown of our communities and it starts with the family structure. I believe feminism poisoned the minds of young women which resulted in bad choices when it comes to our bodies. Black me are to blame for walking away from their responsiblities and not taking an active role in the lives of their offspring. Black women are to blame for opening up their legs and reproducing with suspect men. At the end of the day despite it all, we have a choice. The White people didn’t force black women to have multiple children out of wedlock and make poor choices in mate selection. White people didn’t tell parents not to take an active role in the lives of their children and hold off on having children until you were mentally, fiscally, and spiritually ready to handle the task for reasing another human being.
Word up Muse and Puff. ‘Nuff said. I hate the racism and man-hating feminism and never subscribed. Womanism I learned is more in my mindset. I like gender roles at a minimum, prolly the way I was raised. You should know how to do everything you need to do but there’s some chivalry that should be expressed by both men and women. If you like to eat you better know how to cook. I know how to cut grass and clean gutters but I don’t do the muscle building work if there’s a man around. Chivalry on his part. Same thing is if man does work like that so I don’t have to then he gets a home cooked meal and dessert*. Chivalry on my part. Its like paying for services, respect that your probably stronger and I will respect that someone did something for me I didn’t want to do. Yet if I do enjoy cutting the grass, I go out and do it and damnit there better be some lemonade on a tray when I come indoors, man. Its all about the balance.
*This is my go to chivalry because I love to cook. Pound cakes and pies show up around me for no reason. I’m pissed that I have too many female friends who wont eat the damn desserts. That’s why I had to go make some more male friends. Otherwise I’d be 300lbs because being black, I can’t waste good food.
AHAHAHAHAH This just happened…
Co-worker: Why didn’t you change your name after marriage? Are you a feminist?
@ST — An unnecessarily effeminate man is a man who decided that because he’s gay, he now needs to outdo all of the other unnecessarily effeminate men who act the way a “fabulous chik” acts. The only thing is, fly chiks don’t act the way he, or any of the others, does. I don’t know any women who go around calling each other “ms. honey” all day. I’m the furthest thing from a homophobe you’ll ever find, but ppl like “Gaymonn” (see crunktastical.net), are nothing but gay coons. They’re the gay Flavor Flav’s….if u ask me.
I’m getting a little upset here, this is a subject that is virtually impossible for me to get heated over. I think that what a few folks here are doing is making this an emotional issue instead of a socio-political one. Furthermore, I believe that a lot of Black people have absorbed a lot of foolish propoganda about feminism that was propogated by the White man.
To sum up the words of Paolo Frere in “The Pedagogy Of The Oppressed”: the nature of the oppressed is not to end all oppression, but to BECOME the oppressor and to oppress as he has oppressed. I feel that the relationship of the Black man to the Black woman, in many ways, is a prime example (as is the relationship of the Black community to gay folks). We even see this in what you all call “radical feminists” in their relationship to men. And Muse, I do agree that there has been unfair bias towards men when it comes to reproductive rights, custody, and even alimony cases.
Black women get hung up on the term feminism and can’t see the forrest for the trees. Feminism is not one movement or one school of thought. If you have to call it womanism, fine, call it womanism. The textbook womanist is one who believes and works for equal rights for all people, with special attention to the needs of women of color. Nothing wrong with that. But I am NOT gonna let white woman own feminism! Cause NOBODY needs a feminst conciousness raising as bad as Black women and Black men!
True feminism/womanism DOES acknowledge the differences between women and men and allows each gender the space to define their own identity and peacefully co-exist and have a healthy inter-dependent relationship. To take only the Gloria Steinem/Geraldine Ferraro school of feminism and say that it represents feminism-as-a-whole is like saying that ALL Civil Rights leaders believe in the methods of Dr. King or that ALL Black militants follow the Black Panthers Ten Point Program
I advise you all to read bell hooks’ “Feminism Is For Everbody!”, Michele Wallace’s “Black Macho And The Myth Of The Superwoman” and other things about race and feminism other than Wikipedia.
B4P- But who the hell are YOU to say that these men are unneccesarily effeminate? What if someone said you were unneccesarily masculine? I think Andre J and B. Scott and all my other girlz are just doing them. Do you.
Thank. You. Shabooty.
The Chad, if the problem is that women don’t NEED men and vice versa, wouldn’t this break down ALL families and not just black families?
Not having done a formal study on this, I venture to say that the problems in the black family started way before the sexual resolution, crack cocaine, or rap music (mad at you Sister T, but I understand) -though these things certainly haven’t helped. During slavery, families were broken up on a white man’s whim. You would wake up one morning and by 2pm, you child or your “husband” (not legally married) would be sold away to someone who just so happened to be driving by. Black women learned to “cope” (I disagree that we don’t NEED them -see Jill Scott’s I Need You) without a man out simply b/c we had no choice. Also, in seeing how our men were treated, we became overly protective of them which is why we tend to raise our daughters and cripple (in the name of “protecting”) our sons which ultimately leads to the ugly statistics that I posted in yesterday’s comments. But again, I haven’t done a formal study on this.
Damn! I said I was gonna be completely focused on work today and now I’ve been roped into this conversation. I wish my job would block this damn site!
Believe it or not, there is a segment of the feminist population that don’t want to be men. They’re actually resentful towards the so-called feminazis who’ve got a skewed view of women’s lib. Those “feminazis” are still adhering to the idea that freedoms of thought and choice, assertiveness, and being accomplished are masculine. That is anti-feminism.
Feminism is about a woman having the right to choose whatever suits her agenda and no one else’s. So even a housewife can be a feminist if that is the road that she chose to take. Feminism = choice. Anything else = bullshit.
I appreciate the Coyon matriarchal concept. It’s very pro-family.
A question for my fellas… In terms of “gender roles,” what kind of woman are you looking for (or have you found)? Stay at home mom? Career driven? One who takes care of everything historically/traditionally known as “women’s work”? Equal partner, no gender roles? I’m curious.
I respect women’s lib by letting them get their mace off.
Let’s get one thing straight. Women DO NOT want to be treated as equals! The want to be paid like men, and treated as women. When men begin to treat women as equals, we(men) get sent to sensitivity training. The End!
Yonnie3K I completely understand the historical context as to why the Black Family unit is the way it is. BUT now we do have basic rights that enable us to make certain choices. WE don’t have to wake up at 2am to find that our husbands have been sold to another plantation or being lynched. We don’t have to have a bunch of babies out of wedlock that we cannot take care of. We don’t have to be complacent and accept mediocrity. Black people have choices now. How are we going to be better equipped to fight inequality and tell society how to treat us if we can’t even respect ourselves? Before the revolution starts, folks need to take care of what is going on in their own homes. Women do have a lot of power in determining the direction of the Black community. We don’t have to get knocked up by some loser thug who can’t even read. We don’t have to turn to selling our bodies or disrespecting ourselves. We can get an education and continue to improve our socio economic standing. Our little girls don’t have to grow up thinking that the only way to win a man’s affection is by sleeping with him. We can make sure that our little boys grow up to be productive young men by marrying quality males who will be proactive and raising the children with strong value systems.
Sorry, I’m very passionate about this subject. So many of our ancestors died so we can have these discussions and make good life choices.
I think there is a difference from the political movement of gaining equal rights for woman and equal employment, which is unequivocally a good thing, and social influences of some feminists. The response to the social influences are varied, but nothing can be taken away from the political aspect of it. It is up to people to not take things to an extreme, never doing anything kind for a woman is just as extreme as some women hating all men.
I don’t count the sexual revolution as completely feminist, it can’t be, the notion that “if you drop the panties it will liberate you” sounds like someone was running game and it finally worked.
Voice of Reason: marry me.
@ST — I do me, and they can feel free to keep doing them. But I ask you this, how popular would B. Scott and Andre be without all of the femininity? That’s exactly why ppl give them the time of day, and why they in turn go over the top for everyone. If B. Scott were a typical, laid-back guy, who happened to be gay, he would lose half of hit daily hits, because then, his core audience of black women would be over him. But because he’s the stereotypical gay queen/hair dresser/stylist character, you’ll love him….if u ask me.
Voice of Reason you have a great point. You can’t be a super feminazi but then get mad when a man doesn’t want to open the door for you or pay for dinner. There needs to be a happy balance. Each woman and needs to decide what kind of life she wants, what kind of man she wants to be with, and make the appropriate decisions from there. If a woman decides to be a homemaker, then get with a man who supports that lifestyle. Also note that if a woman does decide to stay at home, there are expectations of running the household, not sitting on your ass watching Oprah and Soap Operas. Now men if you want an independent woman who bring in the cheddar, you need to realize that it is very difficult to work 70+ hrs a week and have the burden of doing all the cooking, cleaning, and childrearing.
Oh yeah Willie Lynch fucced up the black family 200 years ago, we are at a slow climb and rappers aren’t helping but hey the industry is controlled by Willie Lynch’s great great grandchildren.
Amen Omar. I don’t want to be treated like a man. I want FREEDOM to make my own choices and not have limitations put on me b/c I am a woman and I want EQUALITY (equal pay for equal work, right to vote, etc.). However, I definitely want to be treated like a woman. I am completely aware that these can at times be at conflict with one another (how you wanna be treated as an equal, but you want me to open your car door?).
As Chris would say, take it.
Omar: I don’t count the sexual revolution as completely feminist, it can’t be, the notion that “if you drop the panties it will liberate you” sounds like someone was running game and it finally worked.
Thank you. I hate how female promiscuity is blamed on feminism. It doesn’t make sense when you consider the “free-spirited” behavior of the Greeks in their dominant, pre-religion years.
Willie Lynch is a myth - though the contents of the letter are true.
Sorry. That wasn’t Omar. That was The Voice of Reason. Amen TVOR.
@ anonymiss - i agree with you that female promiscuity should not be blamed on feminism - rather, some women have it to thank for sexual liberties (albeit it’s mainly women like those on SATC - sorry to bring it up - who enjoy these liberties without being labelled a whore).
however, on the historical point: only men in Ancient Greece had sexual liberty. sex with women was seen as a necessary evil for procreation purposes only, and the most pleasurable and pure form of sex was that between men - specifically that between older men and boys. not so much “free-spirited” as creepy. women weren’t sexually free, and love between two women wasn’t barely taken into consideration. basically, the ancient greeks aren’t the greatest example of a sexually free society for women, is what i’m trying to say.
B4P- What? Would people like me if I weren’t smart or quirky? We like them for who they are. Your arguement needs work. You just sound like a homophobe.
We had strong leaders leading us, we had historical break throughs. I do and will always believe that what effected our people was what happened at home and the damage that was done to out ancestors due to racism.
Our people we brought here from a totally different society, locked down and abused as slaves. Our women were raped, our children raped and beaten, our men humiliated, etc. Then we were free to live on our own, however be told that we weren’t good enough from the start and that we need to be separate from the other races into a world (that we built) we knew nothing about. Our people were broken the only thing we had was religion, nothing else.
No matter how strong you can pretend to be. Seeing your family and neighbors hanging from trees, your daughters being raped, your family being hosed by the men who are supposed to protect and serve you. Can you imagine feeling like you are a fish placed in a cage with cats? As a whole our people felt like they didn’t belong and had no place to go. Some were stonger than others and pushed forward. Some chose to fight to get an education and make a life for their kids, instead of shooting up and smoking crack because they wanted to block the struggle. Those who pushed forward are our fellow EBP. Who are strong on the outside, yet on the inside they know what we been through and there is pain and that to the white man they are still niggers and “should be assasinated” no matter how educated, and qualified you are (obama).
The parents who were weak raised weak children and the cycle continued.
Black women were always from the very beginning WORTHLESS! Their self esteem…NON EXSISTENT!!!! Then the “creole”/ master’s baby was born and the “exotic” bitch grew didn’t have to pick no damn cotton, our men admired her and desired this new creature rather than the “regular women” they been had. Black women were no longer desired. They were never loved, never knew what it was like to be loved. Or how to show love other then beating the shit out of their children.
Then men say “Black women are IMPOSSIBLE” well I fucking wonder why, our black men don’t even cherish us or desire us. Black women have been through HELL AND BACK. Then the parents name then SHASHANIQUA, DESIRE, LALA ;), OR NAQUAWNDA ALAZAY, wtf. So this feminist shit started with the white woman, who could no longer have bessie may and her mut child clean her floors… the bitch got bored and said she
ain’t will not be dling “nigger chores” or silly things like raise her children, she can go to work like her husband. Or even run for fucking president (wink).(end of rant)
ain’twill not be doing “nigger chores” or silly things like raise her children, she can go to work like her husband. Or even run for fucking president (wink).excuse the 100 errors I type faster than a speeding bullet
are you saying you type like a MAN?
(:
Where is Admiral Furious these days?
he’s busy watching Indiana Jones 3 over and over again -as he’s a big fan.
jk he hates G. Lucas.
he’s scared of the e-hoes.
@ST — I swear to you I’m not a homophobe. I just think the same way many blacks are guilty of fulfilling certain stereotypes, extremely effeminite men do the same thing- fulfill tereotypes. I have a friend who’s gay and he on